Wednesday, August 20, 2008

eBay Puts Store Items Back in Search!

Yep, you heard that right! No, the announcement did not state that store listings would be in search, but the truth of the matter is, the changes made today will force sellers to list their store items in CORE or risk zero exposure. (Thanks Nadine for pointing this out)

Let's look at media items:
  • The vast majority of eBay media items are listed in the Store format today, where a $0.03 30-day listing fee and a 12% FVF are the cost.
  • The new 30-day FP listing will cost $0.05 for sellers who list with the catalog and 15% FVF, which is a substantial increase over current store fees.

After Sept. 16th Store items will have even less exposure than they do now, so it will now be dead money to list in the Store format unless of course nobody changes their listing strategy (not likely). The big unanswered question is; will the exposure increase these items will get in CORE be worth the additional fees?

I will have to take a wait and see approach with this. In theory, CORE items get a lot more exposure than store listings, but when all of those store listings are now in CORE the STR (Sell-thru Rate) will decrease substantially and it will take time to determine if it was worth it or not. If the STR is the same as it is currently with Stores than you are going to have some very unhappy people.

Media sellers are busy crunching the numbers and trying to figure out if the $3 S&H cap can work for them. Many of them currently charging $5.95 for S&H, so the additional $2.95 is going to have to come from somewhere. It will most likely come from an increase ($2.95 each) in the price of product. I'm skeptical that eBay customers will go for the higher price of product, but eBay told me the data supports it.

So after sleeping on these changes over night, I am starting to get concerned about what this means for Media on eBay. It will be a huge fee increase for media sellers, if the value of moving the store inventory to CORE doesn't increase STR and even then it may be a wash.

If eBay doesn't do anything about the demand problems on the site, none of this will matter

Just my 15% Updated, so as not to short change my readers.


Anonymous said...

It's looking like it was all too good to be true. Fixed Price is probably just going to be junked and will probably be placed strategically at the back.

Why would we trust this management team anyway? They've proven they're skunks. I hate being negative Nellie, but nothing they do ends up benefiting the seller.

Randy Smythe said...


If you look at the changes the way eBay wants you too, byt comparing your current CORE listing to the new pricing than everything is grand but in reality STR will dcrease so you basically get Stores in search and you need to determine if the new fees work for your items.

Many Media sellers are decidely against these changes because it amounts to a fee increase with the hope they will get the value.

Anonymous said...

1 point is missing.
High volume and or Media sellers are more likely to list duplicates. So they, in a way get free listings for hundreds or thousands of items. They can list thousands of the top selling movies games and etc and get all but one 1 listed for free. Those of us who sell collectables or one of a kind items will never get these listing discounts.

Cliff said...

Hey Randy,

While you say "Let's look at media items" you fail to mention this example isn't true for other categories since there is no nickel rate for them.

As for these non-Media categories I think the pricing structure is going to keep eBay from being saturated with junk as so many seemed to worry about before the announcement. For me the cheapest items will remain in store basically designed for upsell.

Thanks for everything on this, twitter was fun last night (tired today!)


Randy Smythe said...


Well basically any commodity type product with multiple quantities of inventory will be moved to CORE

That is why they dropped the FVF on computers to 6%, now it doesn't pay to keep those items in SIF when they can be in CORE.

That is the reason for the changes in FVF. They are trying to coax that product out of stores and into CORE

Anonymous said...

I predict that once the only method of payment is Paypal. All fee increases and policy changes (return policies) will be required through Paypal.

Store are terminal and I giving them less then a year.

Cliff said...

That's true too. I guess I get caught up looking at changes from a different perspective since I'm collectibles. Though saying that, digesting what you just said, I get the feeling they're pushing products where they belong.

ms.pat said...

From what I see I guess I can list my larger paintings for 35 cents as fixed price items, good till cancelled? That would be a big plus for us artists since it has been so expensive to list these items. I don't mind adding shipping to the price and putting them up with free shipping. So, I reserve judgement on these new fees till I actually experience them. If this is the case then I don't really see a use for stores at all.

One thing they just have to get over is the elementary school mentality with DSR's. Even Amazon does not punish sellers for their DSR rating - preferring to list them cheapest price first. If a seller is bad and needs to be "punished" either suspend him or get rid of him!

Chris @ TameBay said...

I feel totally short changed by the updates Randy. You promised us 15% and you've already cut back down to 12% :-p

Randy Smythe said...

Chris, thanks for pointing that out. I don't want to short change you. :) That was very funny to me.

Chris said...

It is just another way eBay can take away any chance of us making a decent profit on the site. Right now we charge 5.99 shipping, so we will be losing 2.00 right off. Then with the 15% FVF and the nearly 3% PayPal or credit card fee we will be hurt bad. That is nearly 18% fees. Video games wholesale at or near 18-20% below MSRP already.

Ebay wants to compete with Amazon, but what they do not understand is that Amazon is a retailer themselves and are not subject to the 15% FVF over there. They can sell this stuff in masses at nice margins. Sellers cannot even compete with Amazon on something that Amazon sells. How does ebay think this will work? Ebay is not a retailer and relies on sellers to sell on the site for profit. If sellers cannot profit they will not sell that item any longer and customers will stray to Amazon because of lack of product or high prices.

Think about it now.

A game that retails for 49.99 everywhere else would get us tiny profits if we sell it on eBay. Cost on video games averages 18 - 20% under the MSRP. Video games are very low margin items and you cannot get better deals. What we pay is what Amazon pays and Wal-mart etc...

Game sold on eBay for 49.99

Cost is 42.00

Ebay FVF @ 15% = 7.50

Paypal fee at 2.2% + .30 = 1.49 for a 53.99 sale (4.00 shipping charge assumed)

Actual cost to ship 6 oz first class 2.20

Bubble mailer .20

Leaves us .60 cents profit.

The only way to avoid this is to sell over retail price. Then buyers will quickly learn that eBay is not the place to find bargains and go to Amazon anyway.

How will this change help sellers or eBay? This will backfire on eBay IMO.

Soon eBay is going to be known as the place to buy media items over MSRP. Now how is this a bargain? Amazon will eat this up unless eBay takes a few steps back and hits the meeting room again. This decision was not thought out well at all.


Anonymous said...


Forgive me if you've already mentioned this but I was just re-reading the official announcement and it mentions that the $.05 insertion fee for catalog media is only a "promotion" and all media listings will be $.15 after the first of the year. Most of the calculations you've used assume the $.05 fee, I'd like to see your calculations with the $.15 fee.

I completely agree with your assertion that the media categories will be flooded with listings by the first of the year which will kill sell-through and then fees will essentially be tripled (after we've grown accustomed to the "5-cent listings").

Also, I'm assuming that there will no longer be a free relist possiblity on fixed priced listings? The majority of our media sales now come from fixed priced listings under $10 which currently cost $.25 per listing. If you take into account the possiblity of a sale on a free relist, that number falls closer to the "new" $.15 fee.

With the new listing fee at $.15 vs the old $.25 fee and no relist credit, our insertion fees will essentially be the same, our FVF will be significantly higher, and our sell-through will likely drop precipitously. I realize that we will be getting 30-days exposure vs. 7 days but expect that will be completely negated by the increased number of listings.

Randy Smythe said...


Yes the 15 cents is the standard fee but I spent the whole day with these folks and over and over again I got the impression that this promo would never end.

I don't think the site will be overun by listings. I thinnk the deal is Sellers will create one listing per SKU, so the number of lisings available a particular title will be limited to the number of sellers selling that item.

Tony P. said...

This is just another way to get commodities out of 'storage'; the same as they hoped for with EE.

Sell, sell, sell - turnover - push 'em out - get 'em GONE!

Stores are for long tail and commodities are for NOW, not for Later. You know, that AMD quad-proc computer may be last year's model, but if it sits unseen in a store it will be a museum piece by the time it sells.

Which begs the question...

Randy, are they wanting to separate the Old from the New, but not willing to go so far as having an ebay Classic? KWIM?

Wanting their cake and eating it too. Keep it all together, throw everything at the buyer, hope that something interests him/her, it's easier to monetize it that way, etc, etc

Randy Smythe said...


Yep! They think they can make it work in the same search with the different BM sorts.

I don't think that will work, but it is worth a try before the next logical step. Separate the sites or kill auctions.

They don't honestly want to kill auctions.

Anonymous said...

Randy did you get a vibe on how soon we will see ads on the item page?

Does ebay has a clue how much the site will be FLOODED with overpriced junk? Ebay is just addicted to listing fees for junk that will not sell. It's their crack. Sellers of junk will be happy to sell 1 of 100 items a month. What kills me is they seem to have zero concern for the vibrancy of the marketplace. We're headed downhill fast.

Tony P. said...

"Separate the sites or kill auctions.

They don't honestly want to kill auctions."

Randy, now ya just gotta know.. following that 'choices' sentence with that ominous statement.. don't look good. Nosiree, it don't look good at all. :-(

OK, I'll try to just concentrate on the 2nd sentence and not read too much into it. (Hitler really didn't want to invade Poland, but they were just so darn easy)

Anonymous said...

I think we need to remember that eBay has a private deal with and will surely have more deals soon with other large, corporate retailers.

Just as Amazon themselves are the largest seller of media on (or perhaps other future corporate players) will become the largest sellers of media on eBay...they have corporate muscle in the industry and pay less fees to ebay, etc, etc...

Don't judge Buy's current pricing and sales methods currently on eBay as an argument against could all change at any time, as ebay pulls the strings on their arrangement. All the video games, books, CDs and DVDs in the world could suddenly appear for sale in Buy's ebay store at whatever Amazon competitive pricing eBay desires it to....

As longtime eBay media sellers survey the wreckage around us today, we need to be wary of this fact...


nadine said...

At the back of their minds, eBay mgmt must know they are desperate and flailing.

They know that to kill off auctions, the thing that made eBay, the thing still most associated with the eBay brand, is the final step towards corporate suicide. So they won't actually do that, I'm thinking.

If they destroy auctions, it will be inadvertantly through their greedy changes.

At some point, eBay will hike auction FVFs to match the new fixed-price FVFs, sure as God made little green apples. This corporation is just terminally greedy. Even when they know they are in big trouble, they cannot bring themselves to make a rate cut that actually cuts rates.

nadine said...

Henry Blodget at Silicon Alley Insider advises eBay to just take their medicine, cut fees 25% across the board, and make sellers happy again to regain their growth. He points out that they have loads of cash in hand to do it with.

This advice is way too simple and effective for the clever Charlies at eBay, who I swear think they can pass off fee hikes unnoticed if they just make the fee structure complicated enough.

David said...

It's not just eBay, it's those damn stockholders who are more concerned about their quarterly #'s than the long term future of eBay.

I wonder what would happen if eBay had the fee structure the way it is now, only they kept the FVF's the same instead of raising them like they did.

Inactive and NARU accounts are growing but I don't know if knew business are putting their inventory on eBay (besides the's) to replace them with quality sellers.

Tony P. said...

as copied directly from an online article:

The company's auctions business generated 57 percent of the company's revenue in the most recent quarter, but growth has slowed.

"Clearly there's a strong buyer preference for fixed price," said Lorrie Norrington, president of eBay Marketplace, which includes the eBay site.

Can somebody help me out here; I'm just a numbskull that can't understand such Big Business thinking as that. If'n I was to sell a few different widgets and if'n one of them accounted for the Majority of my sales, I would think that widget to be my 'best seller'.

The other widgets... I really wouldn't think of them as having "a strong buyer preference" over that one, better-selling widget. I can see where those 'other widgets' might surge in sales, at times, but as long as they were still the minority, I would concentrate on my best-selling item.

The sales of that best-seller item may not increase much, over time, but as long as it held steady I wouldn't neglect it. And I certainly wouldn't put all my eggs into that 'other widget' basket, no matter how well they do.

A sure thing is just that, a sure thing, unless you piss on it or piss it off.

(btw- i read something over at AB that really made me say hmmmm???
suppose, just suppose that was/is the 'control group' for all of the new search policies??
where else was ebay gonna get a chitload of product, in multiples, to be able to test out the ability of BM to work its majik?? huh, whatcha think?)

Randy Smythe said...

Keep em coming folks! I'm on the road the rest of the day so I won't be able comment much until this evening. I did find a Starbucks with Internet access here in Carmel before I hit the road again.

These changes will take some time to shale out.

Baubles said...

I'm at the point where I believe anything ebay does is going to somehow backfire. All the changes are twisted to sound good to the public, but once you analyze what is really going on, you see that instead of lower fees, you end up paying more. Sorry, I guess I'm just a skeptic. I was with ebay since its early beginning in 1997, so I've see everything that has happened. I think the whole thing boils down to this: Folks used to believe ebay was on their side. It was a community. It was a fun place to belong. That's what is missing from ebay now. They took a 'grassroots' type enterprise, and turned it into a corporation. That's the problem with ebay. Especially now that they want to be another Amazon. They're not. They're ebay, and they should capatilize on that. No one can live life as someone else. It's just not in their nature to do so. The same is true for ebay. Empower sellers, cut out all this red tape, rules and regulations, then get out of the way and let sellers and buyers do their 'thing'.

nadine said...

baubles, it's not just that ebay turned into a corporation. People are long done grieving over the loss of community.

It's that eBay turned into such a greedy, arrogant and clueless corporation. Nobody goes to Amazon for the community feeling. Amazon makes no bones about controlling its 3rd party sellers. But Amazon knows WTF it's doing and is executing a long range plan.

eBay is just flailing about, desperately trying to keep up revenues even if they know it will kill the goose that laid the golden eggs.

nadine said...

Tony P.,

Well clearly you are a simpleton ;-) Ebay is much cleverer than you. After all, they are not hindered by actual retail experience.

Actually, I think these changes will increase the percentage of listings in auction format overall. Stores are going to be pretty hopeless unless you truely have that unqiue item (assuming Best Match permits), and auctions will be significantly cheaper than fixed price, even when you use auctions as fixed-price-with-potential-upside, i.e. start your item at your hoped-for final price.

ms.pat said...

I've been over to the ebayinkblog most of the day. They keep sending in their high muckety-muck employees to explain various things and the posters keep shooting them down. Ebay is woefully mismatched when it comes to hard-core reality, plus they seem to have lost sight of the fact that sellers don't sell on ebay just to give ebay a helping hand with their revenue ;-) I see lots of failure in Ebay's new plans...especially curtailing buyers from using cash, moneyorders and checks.

Anonymous said...

Randy, a poster named Mike, left this over at Auction Bytes today. I cut and pasted it here, as I didn't want you to miss it-he is pretty on target....

"Folks, we need to put this whole ''free shipping'' scam to bed right now. The reason eBay is pushing this is because they stand to make an absolute windfall of money if they start collecting 12% on the s/h fees.

This is NOT a smart business move. We toyed with the whole free shipping scenario last year in our own webstore and the results were not conducive to sales.


Because people search by lowest price. Having free shipping means you have a higher selling price. Google search results and comparison-shopping sites do not in any way show people that your higher price is because you offer free shipping. Shoppers just see that you have a higher price than your neighbor.

Plus, many buyers are not stupid. Sellers on eBay offering combined shipping discounts are offering a FAR superior deal than a seller with an inflated starting price, but ''free shipping''...meaning that the buyer essentially pays full price for each and every item. In other words, there's no such thing as ''free shipping'', it's just shuffling the deck and calling a price something else.

Finally, it should also be noted that when you offer free shipping and you take returns, you are eating your actual shipping costs! Sure, you could charge a restock fee...but then you'll deal with the lower DSR's!

So let's recap:

When offering ''free shipping'' on eBay, you will

~pay an additional 12-15% on your actual postage costs

~see reduced sales due to lowered interest from your product pricing in search and comparison shopping engines

~lose additional money by taking returns.

Sounds like a lose-lose to me!"

nadine said...

Thomas Sowell wrote this column on the failure of central planning. It applies beautifully to eBay:

Amateurs Outdoing Professionals
The “expertise” of central planners and social engineers often fails in the real world.

By Thomas Sowell

When amateurs outperform professionals, there is something wrong with that profession.

If ordinary people, with no medical training, could perform surgery in their kitchens with steak knives, and get results that were better than those of surgeons in hospital operating rooms, the whole medical profession would be discredited.

Yet it is common for ordinary parents, with no training in education, to homeschool their children and consistently produce better academic results than those of children educated by teachers with Master’s degrees and in schools spending upwards of $10,000 a year per student — which is to say, more than a million dollars to educate ten kids from K through 12.

Nevertheless, we continue to take seriously the pretensions of educators who fail to educate, but who put on airs of having “professional” expertise beyond the understanding of mere parents.

One of the most widespread and dramatic examples of amateurs outperforming professionals has been in economies that have had central planning directed by highly educated people, advised by experts and having at their disposal vast amounts of statistical data, not available and probably not understandable, by ordinary citizens.

Great things were expected from centrally planned economies. Their early failings were brushed aside as “the growing pains” of “a new society.”

But, when centrally planned economies lagged behind free-market economies for decade after decade, eventually even socialist and communist governments began to free their economies from many, if not most, of the government controls under central planning.

Almost invariably, these economies then took off with much higher economic-growth rates — China and India being the most prominent examples.

But look at the implications of the failure of central planning and the success of letting “the market” — that is, millions of people who are nowhere close to being experts — make the decisions as to what is to be produced and by whom.

How can it be that people with postgraduate degrees, people backed by the power of government, and drawing on experts of all sorts, failed to do as well as masses of people of the sort routinely disdained by intellectuals?

What could be the reason? And does that reason apply in other contexts besides the economy?

One easy to understand reason is that central planners in the days of the Soviet Union had to set over 24 million prices. Nobody is capable of setting and changing 24 million prices in a way that will direct resources and output in an efficient manner.

For that, each of the 24 million prices would have to be weighed and set against each of the other 24 million prices in order to provide incentives for resources to go where they were most in demand by producers and output to go where it was most in demand by consumers.

In a market economy, however, nobody has to take on such an impossible task. Each producer and each consumer need only be concerned with the relatively few prices relevant to their own decisions, with coordination of the economy being left to supply and demand.

In short, amateurs were able to outperform professionals in the economy because the amateurs did not take on tasks beyond the capability of any human being or any manageable group of human beings.

Put differently, “expertise” includes only a small band of knowledge out of the vast spectrum of knowledge required for dealing with many real world complications.

Nothing is easier than for experts with that small band of knowledge to imagine that they are so much wiser than others. Central planning is only the most demonstrable failure of such thinking. The disasters from other kinds of social engineering involve much the same problem.

Surgeons succeed because they stick to surgery. But if we were to put surgeons in control of commodity speculation, criminal justice, and rocket science, they would probably fail as disastrously as central planners.

Anonymous said...

Randy did you see this on tamebay regarding eBay Germany?

"For €299 per month, sellers can upgrade to a Premium Shop, which from 25th September to 31st December, will offer unlimited good-til-cancelled BINs, with no insertion fees."

So basically ebay sellers play 52 card pick up with the new fee structure now and in 6 months or a year .com very likely will go with the German model. Ebay will throw an entirely new set of fee cards on the ground and tell sellers to pick them up AGAIN.

Don't mean to be rude but FU ebay!

Anonymous said...

Good analysis, Nadine.

Sellers have long experienced freedom on Ebay. Yes, they're were "criminal" types who needed to be kicked off, but most sellers were basically good and excelled at what they were doing.

Once an individual or a country has experienced freedom, you can't go back the other way and instill fascist rules. What were seeing is a rebellion.

The vast majority of sellers hate Ebay, but at the current time, there is no other venue that comes close to the kind of traffic Ebay offers. But change is inevitable. When you have so much animosity and outward disdain toward a company or specifically the leadership of that company, the dam's eventually going to break.

Ebay might be basking in the sun right now and the vast majority of sellers will play this out for a while longer. But as someone said so succinctly: "Ebay has overplayed their hand." Sellers are onto them and so is Wallstreet. This management team hasn't got a clue what they're doing and they're not fooling anyone.

Randy Smythe said...

Lots of great comments!

I'm back home now so hopefully I will be able to respond to most of you.

Nadine thanks for the "central planning" piece, that was very interesting.

Anonoymous, yes the changes that are happening in Germany and the UK may soon happen here. I think through Christmas there won't be any additional changes, unless we see more roll-backs, but in 2009 I think we will see the end of the SIF format and if their plan for auctions fails, than another attempt will be made to save auctions.

permacrisis said...

Each of these changes is so profound that any normal corporation would make only one necessary change a year, and watch it closely.

By rolling things out as they do they are hopelessly contaminating their own data set.

The impression is one of very deliberate self-marginalization, perhaps for stock-shorting or buyback purposes.

Clearly the auctions are an afterthought and the sellers, curturally despised.

Randy Smythe said...


When these changes go into effect a large number of "auctions" will disappear. These "auctions" are basically BIN's with a start price just under the BIN price.

There is no longer any incentive to use that model any longer. So we will get to see how many Auctions there truly are.

Separate BM rules for Auctions and FP are the bridge to the final outcome. If that strategy works they will keep everything together in search. If it doesn't we will be forced to experience additional changes.

Anonymous said...

Maybe if the auction format isn't truly dead then another venue can pick up on it and succeed. It does make sense that the majority of listings will be FP.

Could this all be a blessing in disguise?

Randy Smythe said...


This approach will at least give Auctions a shot on the "New eBay" I have serious doubts it will work but its all we have right now.

If it doesn't work, then Auctions will hopefully find a home elsewhere.

nadine said...

Randy, you said

When these changes go into effect a large number of "auctions" will disappear. These "auctions" are basically BIN's with a start price just under the BIN price.

Remember the FVFs for the new FP listings are double the FVFs for the auction listing in most categories (Computers excepted).

So if you have a high conversion rate, you won't change to FP; you'll list even more auctions. The only thing that the new FP makes cheap is time. Prices will rise where the market permits, as sellers will wait for someone to meet their price.

permacrisis, there is a good saying usually attributed to Napoleon: never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence.

Anonymous said...


I work with Suzanne Scott in the media category. She forwarded me your email and I want to address your concerns by clarifying a few changes.

First, we are not eliminating any of the current BIN duration options; we are actually adding 30 day duration for no additional cost. All fixed price durations will have the same insertion fee 35c (media being at 15c and 5c) no matter what the duration is, so you can decide which option is best for you business.
Here are a couple of links that might help you in deciding the best duration options:
Second, in regards to listing identical items, as a seller you can list 10 identical single items listings if they prefer. However with the introduction of the recent sales factor into the best match sort on with the new pricing changes on 9/16 it will be in a seller’s best interest to utilize multi-quantity listing to increase your position in search results.
Here are a couple of links that might help you in deciding the best listing practices for Fixed Price:

I hope this helps and feel free to shoot me any other questions that you might have on the changes we announced yesterday.

Randy Smythe said...

Anonymous thanks for posting that.

3 and 7 day FP durations or 30 day durations for the same price hmn! Ending soonest is not part of Fixed Price's Best Match sort so why would anybody use 3 and 7 day FP for the same price as 30 days.

Multi-quantity FP listinges are certainly the way to go.

Tony P. said...

As the resident simpleton ;-), my vision of the future just doesn't completely jibe with some of these ideas.

I can see where some/many/buttloads of those "almost FP" auction listings (BIN and start price, close) will migrate to the new 30 day FP, but not the majority of them.

"There is no longer any incentive to use that model any longer." ~Randy

Au contraire, my blogging friend, there is not only the incentive to save on the FVF, there is also a Brand New implied incentive.

Did ebay not announce that auctions were to be given a better treatment than they have been getting? Didn't they even imply that said auctions will be somewhat 'above' the FP listings, in result pages?

We will just have to wait and see what happens. In the meantime, I used that small 'band of expertise' that I possess, to compose a song for ebay.

Nothing but LOVE, ebay. All for you!

Randy Smythe said...

Tony, the only advantage to the auction BM sort is ending soonest get waited more.

eBay seems to think they will go away becasue that was one of the reason to change this.

We shall see. Interesting choice for a video clip

Tony P. said...

Oh, I'm with you on that 'reasoning' - I just think that they haven't thought it all the way through. (who, ebay? nawww!)

This is all based upon what they have stated, actual results may be entirely different (because they lie, don't know, etc):

Auctions will get better 'ending soonest' consideration from BM.

30-day FP will be "intermingled" into SRPs irrespective of their ending-time.

This will result in two possible scenarios.

1. All soon-to-end auctions will be the majority of listings on a SRP.


2. Some of those 3-minutes-to-go auctions will be displaced to page 2, page 3, etc. by FP listings with (for example) 25 days remaining.

Randy, this may be what you meant by it 'not working', trying to have both "short time" auctions and "long time" FP on the same page. It is the problem that I see.

If #1, then sellers will migrate towards auctions. If #2, then auctions will continue, pretty much, as they are doing currently - treated like mushrooms.

my youtube choice was for the song - the vid sorta sucked. i'd have made one showing a gang with sledgehammers busting up the ebay sign :-) again, :-)